Interview with <persName ref="nognd">Uzai Menachem</persName>,
conducted by <persName ref="nognd">Sybille Baumbach</persName>, on <date when="1993-08-22">22.8.1993</date>.<lb/>
Erwin FinkInstitute for the History of the German Jewsredaktion@juedische-geschichte-online.netBeim Schlump 83, 20144 Hamburg
Exerpt: 1A: 10:05-17:06, 40:47-41:22. With the kind permission of the Workshop of Memory / Research Centre for Contemporary History in Hamburg.
The complete interview is available at the portal Oral-History.digital: https://portal.oral-history.digital/fzh-wde/en/interviews/fzh-wde0171
jgo:source-273
The interview with Uzai Menachem was
conducted during his stay in Hamburg as part of
the visiting program in August 1993. It was the
first time that Uzai Menachem returned to
the city
where he was born in 1928 as Max Isaak and where he lived with his parents and siblings,
first in Parkallee, then in Brahmsallee. By
means of a children transport [Kindertransport], Max Isaak (Uzai
Menchaem) was able to flee to England and later
emigrated from there to Palestine / Israel. His
parents, a sister, and a brother were murdered by the National Socialists.
For Uzai Menachem, returning to Hamburg was
therefore a great psychological burden. The other interviews from the
Research Centre for
Contemporary History in Hamburg / Workshop of MemoryFZH – Forschungsstelle für Zeitgeschichte
(FZH) – Werkstatt der Erinnerung (WdE), which can be listened to
here, also show how individually different remigration decisions
are.
HamburgAugust 22, 1993Werkstatt der ErinnerungFZH/WdE 171EnglishSource:Audiodeu
Uzai
MenachemUUzai Menachem: Although they, the parents were so religious, and the grandparents were
so religious, they felt like German citizens. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: That was their, their fatherland, and thus they were German
citizens with Jewish faith. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: But I am completely different again today, because of what happened. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: Me, I am an Israeli now. I’m proud that I’m Jewish. I’m proud that I’m
Israeli. And eh, I know that the young generation, like you and people I see in the
street, they, they’re not guilty of it, they can’t be guilty of it either. They’re
not guilty of what happened. But, but I can never forget what people ... BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: ... did to me personally, what they did to my parents, the family, my
whole family, I can never forget that. And eh, and eh, that’s why I feel even
stronger as an Israeli, as a Jew; a Jewish Israeli. And the greatest revenge I have,
if I can put it like that, is not, God forbid, to do something to someone because
they did it to me, but when I see that I have a Jewish state... So, the Nazis,
Hitler and the Nazis wanted to ... us. How did he express himself anyway, the, the,
the Hitler? Eradicate. BSybille Baumbach: (at the same time) era(dicate -?). UUzai Menachem: Eradicate. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: So, the Jewish people, the people still exist. We have a state. I have
children, I look at the children, I see the children, and I see the grandchildren.
That’s the greatest revenge I have. Then I know that the Jewish people are still
alive. And will still st-… alive. Because he thought that there would no longer be a
Jewish people. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. Mr. Uzai, is this your first time
back in Germany? UUzai Menachem: Yes. Yes. BSybille Baumbach: And it certainly has been very difficult ... UUzai Menachem: Very difficult, yes. BSybille Baumbach: ... for you. You probably spent a long time ... UUzai Menachem: Yes, yes. BSybille Baumbach: ... thinking about it ... UUzai Menachem: Yes, I thought about it for a long time. BSybille Baumbach: ... whether you should go at all. UUzai Menachem: But still and despite it all, once I want to see the graves of my
grandparents, who are buried here in Hamburg. And I wanted to
see where I lived, where we were born, where we prayed. The first thing, as soon as
we arrived here, the first day I went with m-, my wife and we went to the Grindel. I showed her the
school, the Talmud Thora
School. Where I, my brother and my father and my uncles,
where they all went to school, where my grandfather was a teacher for 50 years. And
then I showed her the, the, the, where the Bornplatz, where the
synagogue was located. And then in Rutschbahn anyway, where
the old
Neue Klaus[synagogue] still stands, and we
couldn’t go in, there’s a factory or something, but it’s locked, locked. And from
there I, showed her Brahmsallee 16 and Parkallee 20, where I
was born. And my parents, my grandparents used to reside on Hansastrasse. Then we went to
Isestrasse, where my
grandmother and grandparents lived, and my uncle lived there at Eppendorfer Baum 19.
And I wanted to see that again. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: The other thing, I’m not saying it doesn’t interest me, but that, for
that I wouldn’t have come to Hamburg. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. Mr. Uzai, you apparently didn’t think about coming to Hamburg before ... UUzai Menachem: Yes. BSybille Baumbach: ... and the ... UUzai Menachem: I thought I would never, my feet would never step on German soil again. BSybille Baumbach: Yes, I can understand that. UUzai Menachem: As we came in over, over German, how we came in over Germany, my wife said, but
this is so beautiful. Then I said to her, “Yes, but the ground is … in Jewish blood
... eh,- ... How do you say it? BSybille Baumbach: Marked ... UUzai Menachem: Yes. BSybille Baumbach: ... or covered. UUzai Menachem: Yes, yes, yes. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. ... Can you imagine, Mr. Uzai, why you were able to come now that
you’re older? UUzai Menachem: Because I want to see once again, I just want to see once again the roots
from where I came. Well, I don’t have any roots here. My roots were pulled out. I
don’t have them on my own ... Just like they used to say here, like I used to say:
My parents thought they were Jew-, they were good Germans and good Hamburg residents. Well, I
don’t have any roots here, out they were ... But I’m interested in seeing where I
came from again. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: And, as I told you, I want to see the, the, the, the eh, eh, the graves
of my grandparents. BSybille Baumbach: Oh, were you ...? UUzai Menachem: And maybe ... BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: ... of an uncle who didn’t have any children, where, all of whom died.
And I know one family, my father’s older sister, they lived in the Grindelhof, I think, and none of them
came back. And he, and the uncle, he died in 1940, of
course. I want to go there too, to the grave. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: Once. BSybille Baumbach: Have you been to the Orthodox cemetery in ... UUzai Menachem: No, ... BSybille Baumbach: ... Langenfelde? UUzai Menachem: ... Tomorrow , tomorrow I’ll go there. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: Tomorrow I’ll be there. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: I was there, like, when I was a child! BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: But (briefly laughs a little bit) ... Tomorrow I’ll go there. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. ... It’s probably very difficult for you to be here? UUzai Menachem: Yes. BSybille Baumbach: Here in Hamburg. UUzai Menachem: Yes. BSybille Baumbach: Do you regret that you came or do you think ...? UUzai Menachem: No, I don’t regret it. But if ... BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: ... I walk down the street and I see pe-, older people, then, then, I say
to my wife all the time, then I’m always very, although not everyone has to be, but,
but I say to my wife, “He must have been a Nazi. Maybe he was a murderer. Maybe he
took my parents to the station...” BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: “... forced them, took them there.” When I see someone, someone older
than me. - BSybille Baumbach: Yes. Mmh. I can understand that. Mmh. Is it exhausting being here? UUzai Menachem: Yes. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: Mentally exhausting. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: Yes, yes. BSybille Baumbach: I can believe it. UUzai Menachem: Mmh. I didn’t sleep the first night. And they took us, they showed us, I
didn’t know, there’s a meadow next to the tr-, the Dammtor train station
... BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: ... with a memorial, and they told us that the, they collected all the Jews
there in, in 1941 in November,
before they were sent to eastern Germany. BSybille Baumbach: (That was a collection point. -?) UUzai Menachem: And they were then, at night they were in the big building on the
right. And my parents were there. Because my parents were sent away in November. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: And sure, that’s very difficult for me. Skipped: Memory of school and children
transport, dealing with the pastBSybille Baumbach: Yes. You’re flying back on Tuesday. UUzai Menachem: No, on Tuesday anyway, we’re flying on to Switzerland. BSybille Baumbach: To Zurich. UUzai Menachem: To Zurich. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. UUzai Menachem: We’ll stay there for a week. And then we’ll travel back home. BSybille Baumbach: Yes. Maybe you want once again... UUzai Menachem: And the, we’re going on vacation there. And the lady in the agency, in
the travel agency said: “Why are you going to Switzerland? It does cost-,
you could stay in Germany, it would be cheaper.” And I told her that I didn’t want to
go on vacation in Germany. That’s not a vacation for me. BSybille Baumbach: Mhm.