Interview with <persName ref="nognd">Kurt van der Walde</persName>, conducted by <persName ref="http://d-nb.info/gnd/122982061">Alfons Kenkmann</persName>, on <date when="1994-05-09">May 9</date> and <date when="1994-05-30">30, 1994</date>,<lb/> <abbr><orgName ref="http://d-nb.info/gnd/2181173-8">FZH</orgName></abbr> / <abbr><orgName ref="http://d-nb.info/gnd/16181772-5">WdE</orgName></abbr> 251 Erwin Fink Institute for the History of the German Jewsredaktion@juedische-geschichte-online.net
Beim Schlump 83, 20144 Hamburg

Excerpt: 3b, 28:07-39:35; 4a, 08:14-16:04. With kind permission from the Workshop of Memory / Research Centre for Contemporary History in Hamburg. The complete interview is available at the portal Oral-Hisory.digital: https://portal.oral-history.digital/fzh-wde/en/interviews/fzh-wde0251

jgo:source-272

Kurt van der Walde was born in Posen (today Poznan in Poland ) on January 20, 1915, but he grew up mainly in Hamburg-Eppendorf, where his father worked in the metal trade. After graduating from the Heinrich-Hertz-Realgymnasium [a high school focused on science, math, and modern languages], Kurt van der Walde completed a commercial apprenticeship in a textile company. In his spare time, he was active in various left-wing (non-Zionist) youth groups, including the Socialist Revolutionary Youth Movement Sozialistische Revolutionäre Jugendbewegung. He was arrested in 1936 and sentenced for “preparation to high treason” [“Vorbereitung zum Hochverrat”]. After being released from prison in 1938, he emigrated to Britain, where he worked in the industrial sector (such as a wire-weaving mill) in Manchester. He married a Hamburg woman in exile and had a daughter with her. Kurt van der Walde returned to Hamburg in November 1946 because he wanted to become politically active against reactionary tendencies in post-war Germany. He belonged to the Free German League of CultureFreier Deutscher Kulturbund and later – until it was banned in 1956 – to the Communist Party. Also active in the Committee of Former Political PrisonersKomitee ehemaliger politischer Gefangener and in the Jewish Congregation, he was involved as a contemporary witness for the Association of Persecutees of the Nazi RegimeVereinigung der Verfolgten des Naziregimes – VVN. After studying history and English, he worked as a teacher. Following the death of his first wife, he remarried. Kurt van der Walde died in Hamburg-Eppendorf in 2003.

 Hamburg09.05.1994 und 30.05.1994Werkstatt der ErinnerungFZH/WdE 251Werkstatt der Erinnerunghttps://zeitgeschichte-hamburg.de/profil-3.html EnglishSource:Audiodeu

Kurt van der Walde at the time of the interview, FZH / WdE 251, Alfons Kenkmann
W Kurt van der Walde : In, in the company where I worked, and the war went on and was slowly coming to an end, and the questions kept coming: “Kurt, when are you going home?” Came from individuals too, of course. K Alfons Kenkmann : So, they, they asked when, when are you going back? W Kurt van der Walde : Not at all, no malice, not at all. And again, I have to emphasize this here, it has to be said, the women in particular conducted themselves very well. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : The women workers. That’s quite amazing. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : I don’t want to generalize either. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : For heaven’s sake, not that they were all the same. But one uh, just the example when I came back: ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Men often went: “When are you going home?” We have to give that as an example. And I decided to return in 1946. K Alfons Kenkmann : When? W Kurt van der Walde : In November, after all, I could only return when the ship was sailing and if England was prepared to let me go back. K Alfons Kenkmann : Ah. W Kurt van der Walde : And it was Carl-Heinz Rebstock who asked me to return; he had survived. And there were already connections from our side as well, as I was organized in the Free German League of CultureFreier Deutscher Kulturbund, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... and there were already connections to bring Germans back to Germany, eh, eh, refugees back to Germany. Why? In order to help. K Alfons Kenkmann : Was it one of the first opportunities to return? W Kurt van der Walde : For me, it was the first opportunity. They were perhaps the first ones to return, maybe four, five months before that. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Not any time earlier. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : There was a certain inhibition, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... to let us go back, because anyway, there were quite a few Communists among us. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : And eh, the British occupation authorities were suspicious of letting such people go back. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : No, that’s quite clear to us. However, eventually it was through the requests by friends that it happened, wasn’t it. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. So, you wanted to, you were about to describe, I interrupted you, I’m sorry, eh, the women, how did the women react when you left? Abridged: About the work in the wire-weaving mill W Kurt van der Walde : Yes. So eh, they said to me when they heard that I had registered in, in, I registered very early, at the beginning of September, at the beginning of eh, at the beginning of ‘46, I registered, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... In ’45, I had already registered, at the beginning of ‘46, I think, and when they heard that, they said, they scolded me. They said: “Listen, you’re crazy. You’ve got a wife, you’ve got a child, you can’t go over to the circ-, do you know what circumstances are like over there? You can’t go there. You can’t do that.” All of the women. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : And a whole bunch of men went: "Kurt, when are you going home?" K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh, mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Well, it was the workplace, wasn’t it. K Alfons Kenkmann : Yes, yes, yes. W Kurt van der Walde : It’s interesting, isn’t it. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : With women, this personal, this empathy for ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... family concerns ... K Alfons Kenkmann : The men also perceived you as a competitor. W Kurt van der Walde : Yes. But not the women. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : That’s interesting, isn’t it? Not a single woman. So, they practically swarmed me. And then, when I visited them again after ten years, it was so wonderful. I went back, I made a sentimental journey. By then I was already in the teaching profession. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : I was able to do that. And that was so strange: The men were much more reserved and all that. I’m not saying anything against them, they were nice and all that. The women, they started making (laughs slightly), a real fuss, didn’t they? I always say (W. in an elevated mood): “Blody Kurt” and then they were like that, right. So, I’ll never forget that, no. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Well, that was such a friendship, wasn’t it. That’s why I would say I’m incredibly grateful to England, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... for what they did for me. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : So, they saved me and my family too. Abridged: About the professional activity in England W Kurt van der Walde : The only thing I want to say politically is that we were organized with refugees ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... together in the Free German League of CultureFreier Deutscher Kulturbund, which ... K Alfons Kenkmann : What am I to understand by that? W Kurt van der Walde : Yes, so these are people who eh, continued the resistance, basically the idea of resistance, which was conducted in Germany, eh, abroad in favor of the German anti-Fascists and never wished to break off the connection to German anti-Fascism; and the closer the end of Hitler approached, they prepared the readiness to go back to Germany as early as possible to join anti-Fascists, they were outspoken anti-Fascists, to be able to work along anti-Fascist ways in Germany.

Excerpt 4a, 08:14-16:04, duration: 07:58 K Alfons Kenkmann : Now allow me a question: After all, it’s unusual to return as a Jew. W Kurt van der Walde : Yes. K Alfons Kenkmann : What were your driving forces? W Kurt van der Walde : That was my ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... actually an obligation had been growing. Eh, it probably stemmed from the time when I decided to join the resistance. That was a continuity. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Well, then what was added, what came together at that time and place: Never again. Since I’ve survived after all, to join, united, in the effort, working together so that they’d never again have a chance. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Optimistic. Very optimistic. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh, mh. K Alfons Kenkmann : And eh, the feeling now of returning as a Jew, where eh, ... W Kurt van der Walde : Yes. K Alfons Kenkmann : a majority... W Kurt van der Walde : Yes. K Alfons Kenkmann : ... of the German Jews ... W Kurt van der Walde : Yes, yes. K Alfons Kenkmann : ... had been murdered. W Kurt van der Walde : Because I thought, you see, you might remember my statement in the cab. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. Yes, I know. W Kurt van der Walde : There’s a common ... I’m a very convinced Jew as far as history is concerned. Of Jewishness. And I saw it as my duty as a Jew to work on the spot, here on the spot, to ensure that they never get another chance. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : And that this, eh, because I believed, through the connections I had, already from the resistance and the emigration and again anew, that I said that it was also necessary for us, individuals who survived, if they were locked in with this group of friends and this group, this combat group ... I want to say deliberately combat group. Not with weapons. A combat group against Fascism. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Here. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : On the spot. And also against the reaction. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Also against the reaction. And the reaction was there. K Alfons Kenkmann : In what way? W Kurt van der Walde : Came very quickly, ma- ... K Alfons Kenkmann : In what way? W Kurt van der Walde : ... massively. K Alfons Kenkmann : In what way? So it’s June ’46 then, you’re coming back. W Kurt van der Walde : Yes. Everything was fine at first. We sit together, we meet with Social Democrats, young ones, and so on, right. I was in the party at the time. K Alfons Kenkmann : In the Communist Party of Germany (KPD)? W Kurt van der Walde : In the Communist Party of Germany (KPD). And eh, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Then where did you live here in Hamburg-Eppendorf? W Kurt van der Walde : Where did I live? I got a place to stay in Flottbek because I had relatives, my wife had relatives there, right. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : And eh, I also had the hope back then that we would, as I said that, from the Kreisau Circle to the Communists, [build] a democratic, socially oriented front that would never let this come up again, not for ever. And I had seen the obligation as a survivor. I just couldn’t, I had the feeling that I couldn’t stay in England while the others went back, eh, my friends, and work here and ... It was very, very difficult for me. I have to say that. They asked me: “Well, Wolf, aren’t you happy,” the friends asked, “that you’re going back to Germany now?” K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Do you know what I answered? “I -, I’m going back to Germany as if I were in the anti-Fascist fight like in Spain. It’s a kind of Spain for me.” So, that’s how down I was. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Not a moment of joy. Not at all! No relationship at all. Only my anti-Fascist friends. And I found them very quickly here too, didn’t I? K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. Who were they, these men or women ... W Kurt van der Walde : They were ... K Alfons Kenkmann : ... of those initial days? W Kurt van der Walde : ... surviving resistance fighters. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Immediately. Above all, the victims of the Nazi regime. Committee of Former Political Prisoners. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Who right away had me, so, I worked at the Jewish Congregation for a while. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. Speaking of which, you worked at the Jewish congregation. Did you encounter any fates there, and were you told any stories? W Kurt van der Walde : I only had to deal with people who were saved by their Christian wives. All the others were exterminated. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. So, you have ... W Kurt van der Walde : Only, there were only people working in the Jewish Congregation ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... who were alive because they had Christian wives. Only those. I never met anyone again who had been in a Jewish marriage. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. So, you didn’t meet any former (concentration) camp victims either, so hardly any ... W Kurt van der Walde : Mh. K Alfons Kenkmann : I can hardly believe it. There were ... after all. W Kurt van der Walde : Mh, yes, yes. W Kurt van der Walde : But some people came back who survived. For example, Dr. Löffler, who had a very high position here in the Senate. Who had been in Theresienstadt, yes, who had been in Theresienstadt. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : He came back from there. Yes, we have, a few of us have survived. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. I mean, did you also provide charitable services there, or some of them did come back highly traumatized, didn’t they? W Kurt van der Walde : Yes, of course. Eh, we worked there together and it was a very difficult situation. I first worked for the Committee of Former Political PrisonersKomitee ehemaliger politischer Gefangener and then, because the head of the Jewish Congregation knew me from before, from the youth movement, he asked me if I would work for him, and then I did. K Alfons Kenkmann : Who, who was the leader back then? W Kurt van der Walde : His name was Goldstein, wasn’t it. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : For a while, and then I started to study, right. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : That was also the right thing for me. I could pick that up again, I was able to go straight in. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : I had my high school graduation diploma ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Yes. W Kurt van der Walde : ... from ‘33 in my pocket. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : They accepted me immediately. And then things actually started to look up. You got together with young people, sensible people who would never ... “Without me,” the movement was there. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : It was very f-, fast, so fed up with the war and ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... because of that ... That was a favorable situation for me, right. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Well, I have to say, I told you, I didn’t have to suffer much from antisemitism in Germany. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : In post-war Germany. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. And it wasn’t a problem for you to come to terms with that psychologically? These are: I’m one of the few survivors. And I’m in Hamburg now. W Kurt van der Walde : That was , I became ill of course. K Alfons Kenkmann : Yes, I wanted to ... W Kurt van der Walde : That has something to do with it. K Alfons Kenkmann : You need to know whether ... W Kurt van der Walde : Of course not. So, the ... W Kurt van der Walde : Yes, yes, ... W Kurt van der Walde : The female doctor then in, ... W Kurt van der Walde : ... the female doctor in Bergen-Belsen, where I went for care, she said, “It’s psychosomatic in your case.” K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Well, that makes you more susceptible and all that. Certainly. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : So, it was very problematic. K Alfons Kenkmann : So, it was ‘46 / ‘47 or later? W Kurt van der Walde : Yes, it was ‘46. I came back in ‘46. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. I started studying in the fall of ‘47, and in ’48, I became seriously ill, ’47 in the f-, winter. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : And then, with the help of the Jewish organization, I was sent to Bergen-Belsen, where SS doctors had to provide care, right, for the seriously ill. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Of course, I came in contact with victims, only victims. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Nah. As I was still in Bergen-Belsen at the time, I still tried to avoid the places where, was on the edge, where the […]-, you know in Bergen-Belsen there are horrible places, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... where the people were found, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... when the English occupied the area, right. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : What happened there. The last camps, right. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : You heard about that? K Alfons Kenkmann : Yes, yes. W Kurt van der Walde : I witnessed all those things. And, but I don’t regret it at all. It was difficult, but I was so, I have to be so grateful that I, I mean, I told you my fate, I have to be so grateful about the way I escaped. And if I felt an obligation back in 1934 to do something against the Nazis, ... K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : ... then I have to carry on. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. W Kurt van der Walde : Not only against the Nazis, but perhaps also in a positive sense. K Alfons Kenkmann : Mh. Mh.