Interview with Roberto Kahn-Heymann, conducted by Sybille Baumbach, on August 26, 1995 [in excerpts], FZH/WdE 384.
source date: August 26, 1995
language: eng
availability: Exerpt: 2A, 34:03-39:04, 40:56-43:46 (gekürzt), 2B, 01:04-06:46 (gekürzt). With the kind permission of the Workshop of Remembrance / Research Centre for Contemporary History in Hamburg. CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0. The complete interview is available at the portal Oral-History.digital: https://portal.oral-history.digital/fzh-wde/en/interviews/fzh-wde0384 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/)

Picture taken of Roberto Kahn-Heymann at the time of the interview, photo: FZH/WdE

[...] First section: 2A, 34:03-39:04 Roberto Kahn-Heymann[^1]: But when that fell by the wayside… Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Just studying law, that did not lead to anything. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I would have become a small assessor somewhere… Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And I would always have had to stay in Spain. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Instead, I returned to Germany in 1952. At first I only came to see Travemünde because my grandparents and parents told me about having been there with me every summer. Then I wanted to see the house in Isestrasse where I was born, the house in Hansastrasse. And then I went through Lübeck, and there was a notice saying British Centre “Die Brücke”[^2], a lecture on China. I went in and thought, what the Chinese can do, I can do too, give a lecture. And then I spoke to a Mr. and Mrs. Mertens, a lovely couple, and said, I am here, actually as a tourist, I would like to give you a lecture on Spain. I have already given many lectures in Spain myself. Quite apolitically, though… Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: For I will be back in Spain in four weeks, otherwise I will have the major problems. There are informers everywhere. And they said: Agreed! Do come in eight days, we will pay you such and such a sum. We will also take you to lunch, we will cover your return trip from Hamburg. And that is what I did. And when I was there, they said the lecture was so nice. We thought about writing to all “Die Brücke” British Centres to ask them to take it. And then they wrote to Neumünster and to Kiel and to Flensburg, where there was a “Brücke,” and I started giving lectures in Schleswig-Holstein for the enormous fee of 20 marks per lecture. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But then later on, I was always my own manager, I did all the correspondence myself, and I went to Germany 33 times and gave hun... 1,300 lectures. But not just in Germany. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: In Switzerland, in Denmark, in Austria, in Holland, in Spain, in Portugal, on a wide variety of topics: “Life in Modern Spain,” “Fairytale Land of Spanish Morocco[^3],” then my mother invented the title “Spain and Portugal – Unequal Siblings” for me – by then I knew Portugal very well as a tourist – “50 Years of Spanish Theater,” “Jews and Judaism in Spain,” “Film and the Film Industry in Spain.” So that was a whole series of titles right there. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But “Life in Modern Spain” was always in demand.[^4]I spoke at Young Men’s Christian Associations, Jewish congregations, Jewish women’s associations. But I did not take any fees from Jews. Sybille Baumbach: Mhm. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: The congregations were all still in very poor financial shape. I spoke in Kammertheater [small-stage theaters], in community colleges, in nations education centers, w... in hospitals, in lung sanatoriums, from the Saar region up to Apenrade [Aabenraa] near Denmark, and on the other side almost from Bohemia, from the border there at Hof an der Saale and these places all the way to the other side, up to Cleves and Guelders. Sybille Baumbach: Mhm. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I was always traveling back and forth, always back and forth. I was often on the train for 20 hours out of every 24 hours. I slept in 30 beds on many a tour. Sybille Baumbach: [...] Mr. Kahn, what were your first impressions of Germany in ‘52? Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Well, they were devastating. Devastating. I arrived in Munich. And everything was destroyed and I could not find a room. And I... but then I was given very nice accommodation, very good accommodation by the General Students’ Committee, who helped me right from the start. The congregation could not help me at all, because most of the Jews were not in Munich, but in the Wolfratshausen[^5] camp. That is near Geiselgasteig, in that area, and I went there to visit them. They were all in a terrible state, because they all had tuberculosis or some other illness, so they could not emigrate to Israel. But there was no accommodation for them either. And I was ah... welcomed very warmly in the student's dormitory. I said straight away that I was Jewish and became very friendly with a Baron von Ungern-Sternberg, with whom I had been in contact for decades. Today he is an old doctor, probably already retired, in Detmold. He was from the famous Baltic Ungern-Sternberg family. However I certainly did not want to stay in Munich. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I had actually only come to see a bit of Germany on vacation. [...]

[^1: The GND lists Roberto Kahn-Heymnann under his pseudonym Roberto de la Barca. Under this pseudonym, he published at least three novels in Spain as well as other articles in magazines, including the poem “Eterna Vendimia” (1941) in the Falangist magazine “Yugo y Flechas”. How this publication came about could not be clarified within the scope of this project.]

[^2: “The Bridge”]

[^3: Spanish Morocco was a Spanish protectorate that existed from 1912 to 1956]

[^4: Abridged: about the lectures and the necessary adaptations in the period 1952 to 1969 (content, technical)]

[^5: The Wolfrathshausen camp was also known as Föhrenwald camp served as a camp for Jewish displaced persons until 1957.]

Second section 2A, 40:56-43:46 (in excerpts) It is like this: I went to Germany in 1952. I gave my first lecture by chance. This resulted in 33 trips to Germany and 1,300 lectures in Central Europe. But in 1969, when I wanted to continue giving lectures, as I was still young, my father became very ill, my grandmother had passed away, my mother was alone with him, and... he was already quite old, and so I stopped touring and stayed with my parents in Spain and started teaching again. Sybille Baumbach: Mhm.[^6] Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And after I could no longer go to Germany, I said to my parents that I did not want to live under Franco anymore, so we had better go to Portugal.[^7] Sybille Baumbach: And you then lived with your parents in Lisbon? Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I always lived with my parents. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Sixty-one years with my mother, 35 years with my grandmother... Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And 64 years with my father. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: The only time I did not was when I was here. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I came here three times a year and stayed for three months each time. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But then I always went to Spain quickly for Christmas or Jewish holidays. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I almost always traveled by train. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Flying was very expensive back then. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Sybille Baumbach: Where would you say your home is? Roberto Kahn-Heymann: That’s a very difficult question, which I asked myself just yesterday. My home is Hamburg, I am a great local patriot, and my mother used to be as well. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But I cannot say that I feel German or that Germany is my home. Sybille Baumbach: Mhm. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: The 30 relatives who perished completely prevent me from… Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And the six million murdered Jews, although I have a lot of Aryan German friends. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: With whom I am in correspondence, who visit me here and whom I visit, all over Germany and also abroad. I also meet a lot of German non-Jews in Portugal, but I know for sure that they were never Nazis and all their families had already been democratic. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But I cannot say that Spain is my home, even though I was only seven years old... Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And even though I have a Spanish passport, because I also experienced too many unpleasant things in Spain. Portugal is certainly not my home either, because I was already 47 years old when I went there, but I really like living there and would be very, very reluctant to leave. I even bought my grave between my parents in the Jewish cemetery. [...]

[^6: Abridged: Work as a private teacher in Spain (adult education, translations)]

[^7: Cut out: Father only wants to go to Portugal after retirement, about parents' age and death.]

Third section: 2B, 01:04-06:46 (abridged) Sybille Baumbach: Are you religious? Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Yes Sybille Baumbach: Are you… Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But not orthodox. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I was not brought up orthodox at all. My grandfather was on the board of trustees of the Neue Dammtor Synagogue here in Hamburg. That was in Beneckestrasse, and that was the traditional synagogue. But there were two other large, much larger synagogues, in terms of membership; that was the synagogue on Bornplatz, where only my very orthodox relatives went. My grandparents and parents did not. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And then there was the temple in Oberstrasse, where I gave many lectures for Nordwestdeutscher Rundfunk [North West German Broadcasting Corporation], today I think it is just Norddeutscher Rundfunk, back then it was Nordwestdeutscher Rundfunk. And I was very horrified that the temple had been sold by the Jewish Congregation for lack of Jews, and uh... that the menorah could still be seen outside and that such secular things were being spoken inside was uncomfortable for me. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. [...][^8] Roberto Kahn-Heymann: When I came back to Hamburg in ‘52, there was only the very small synagogue in Kielortallee. It was a private synagogue belonging to a retirement home. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: The old people had been murdered or had died, and then this tiny private synagogue was turned into the sole one. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And on holidays, we ate at the retirement home in Sedanstrasse under the direction of the chief, um, regional rabbi Dr. Holzer, who had also married my parents. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But I assume that the ancient house in Sedanstrasse has been replaced by a new one. Sybille Baumbach: Yes indeed, yes indeed. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Because today you do have bathrooms. Sybille Baumbach: Yes indeed, yes indeed. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: It did not feature bathrooms then. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: It only had very modest… Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Like... Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Sanitary facilities... Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And the people were happy with everything, because they had just survived the camp. There were very old people there who had slept on the ground for three years in Theresienstadt. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: A friend of my grandmother’s, with whom I was there, people did not think anything of the fact that very young people – I was 27 and she was 80 – were living in one house. After all, it was the only Jewish house left. At that time the Jewish houses, I think in Bundesstrasse, were only for families. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And this one was also for short-term residents, and quite a few people came here to visit graves. Sybille Baumbach: Yes, yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And they were all allowed to eat at Sedanstrasse. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: They paid for it, but I think only three marks. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And it was kosher food, and the rabbi said the prayers. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Sybille Baumbach: Mr. Kahn, could you have imagined returning to Germany at any time? Roberto Kahn-Heymann: Oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely. In the 1950s and 1960s, I could definitely imagine it. I was much younger and had settled in very well, especially in Hamburg. I would have liked to live here again, I had many offers, but my father did not want to go back under any circumstances, he could not get over the fact that his whole family had been wiped out. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And he said: Mom and I cannot follow you there. So I said: Then we will go to Portugal, you can follow me there. But I would have liked to have moved to Hamburg, yes. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: At the time, we Jews were even offered a certain and quite large sum of money and a cheap apartment if we committed to living here and opening a business here. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I would have done that. Maybe a bookshop. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But I did not want to leave my parents for good. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I was the only son, and… Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: My grandmother was already very, very old, my parents were elderly people, they had no other relatives besides me. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And I did not want us to separate. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But I could have imagined that. Sybille Baumbach: Really? Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I had so much good Jew... Sybille Baumbach: Despite the fact...? Roberto Kahn-Heymann: So many good Christian friends. Besides, when I founded the Jewish youth club in Hamburg in 1952, we were 27 young Jews who are probably 27 old people today, if they are still alive, but not one of them stayed. They all emigrated to Palestine, to Canada, to North America... Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I did not find a single one any more, I asked around. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I also looked through the lists. And when I was here again later, I was less interested because I did not have any more friends; most of the Jews were Persians and other foreigners, uh, no Ashkenazim, no Hamburg natives, there was no more contact. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I was still attracted by Ida Ehre with the Kammerspiele [a type of intimate theater], Inge Meysel, who is also Jewish, uh, other actors, and I knew Ernst Deutsch very well, after whom a theater is named today. Sybille Baumbach: Yes, Roberto Kahn-Heymann: But then once more many years had passed for that as well. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: And today I want to stay where I am, now that I have finally come to rest at 70. Sybille Baumbach: Yes, yes. Roberto Kahn-Heymann: I have turned 70 now. Sybille Baumbach: Yes. [...]

[^8: Abridged: About the history of the temple and the Dammtor Synagogue]